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Finding a Mahasi Sayadaw tradition center? Q 2 of 2

0 votes

OK, first full disclosure on why this is controversial. It's going to mention Daniel Ingram. Now yes, I understand that Yuttadhammo has said (in a thread last year) that he'd rather keep comments about Ingram off the board. I understand that, but I'm not talking about Ingram per se, but rather about that whole "movement". I hope that at least gets the people with "delet thread" permissions to at least read to the end of the post before killing it :-)

So, first of all, there are at least two major things I find appealing in Yuttadhammo's Youtube stuff.

a. It is very clear. He seems to avoid culturally loaded language and manages to explain what are difficult subjects in a way that a scientifically trained westerner like me can understand. My main other exposure to Buddhism is Zen and it is very different in this respect.

b. It is ... how shall I put this ... both measured, and deep. A good example is the video where he talks about the one occasion where an old senior teacher of his was watching a DVD he (Yuttadhammo) had got for him, and was being hurried out the door by some other monks. Y. relates how on the one hand the old man got a little bit grumpy with the monks ("Can't you give me just one minute!"), but on the other hand, it was the only time he saw him grumpy.

Now an important point (for me) is understanding where the appealing qualities are coming from. Is it simply because Yuttadhammo is a Canadian dude who can speak clearly to me? Possibly. Or ... more intriguing ... is it because he's coming from a pretty cool tradition, namely that of Mahasi Sayadaw. Is the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition particularly known for both its clarity, and its balance?

OK, well here's the problem. I happen to have stumbled upon another person claiming to be following the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition, also speaking very lucidly, and with both measure and depth. Specifically it is the practical dharma "movement" that appears to have grown up around Daniel Ingram.

It says its Theravadan.
It specifically says it's Mahasi Sayadaw. He points people squarely in its direction, and says he's teaching only what he got by simply doing what that tradition teaches.
It sounds very similar in some ways to the stuff I hear Yuttadhammo saying.
That said, it has what anyone who has read up on it will know, namely a particular tone and setting of expectations (both in terms of achievements and the highly scary "dark night"), that set it apart to some extent.

OK, finally, my question 2 is:

Q2. In the face of a claim of "we're in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition", how does a clueless newbie like me separate the genuine from the rest? Is there some kind of register?

thanks.

asked Jan 25, 2012 in Meditation Courses by johnny (180 points)  
edited Jan 25, 2012 by johnny
   

3 Answers

+4 votes
 
Best answer

Hi Johnny,

I think there are two questions; how to tell whether someone is practicing according to Mahasi Sayadaw's method, and how to tell if someone is practicing according to the Buddha's teaching. It's not so important that someone teaches exactly according to the Mahasi Sayadaw's method, but it is very important that they follow the outline given by the Buddha in some form or another.

Whether someone is a difficult question to answer, since the Buddha's outline is indeed quite flexible, and everyone seems to think their interpretation is not an interpretation and actually identical to what the Buddha taught (i.e. exclusively).

That being said, there are some general principles that, if you ask me, I would say are fairly standard among Theravada Buddhists as being ways to tell whether someone is actually following the Buddha's teaching.

If, for example, someone lets it be publicly known that they are an Arahant, or some other form of enlightened being, it is generally accepted that they are not. There is actually room given for this in the Visuddhimagga, which I personally agree with:

But how then, does someone with cankers destroyed declare himself thus: “I am one whose cankers are destroyed?” Why not? He declares himself when he knows that his instructions will be carried out.

Vism III.63

In other words, one might tell a student whom one thought it would benefit; even such a case I would have to say unusual - the Mahasi Sayadaw himself gave a unequivocal answer to this question:

A true follower of the Buddha should have few desires. He should be content with what he has and he should try to lessen his defilements. He should have little desire for material possessions or attendants. He should not want to speak of his accomplishments in the study of scriptures or in the practice of meditation. He should keep the depth of his learning or his spiritual attainments to himself. A true noble one does not reveal his spiritual insight although he wants to share it with other people. It is only the religious impostor who calls himself a noble one or an Arahant.

Sallekha Sutta, Introduction

The matter is further compounded if a self-proclaimed arahant is still observed (and confirms themselves) to have greed, anger and/or delusion inside themselves. Claiming to not be attached to these states is not protection; an arahant, according to the Theravada, is unanimously understood to be without these three mind states.

It is important to remember that one can be a powerful and experienced meditator and still not be enlightened. One can be a charismatic speaker and still not be enlightened. One can act and speak in a kind, compassionate, peaceful, focused, clear manner and still not be enlightened. The only sure way, the Buddha himself said, to know whether one's teacher is truly enlightened, is to spend a great deal of time with them:

"It's through living together that a person's virtue may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"It's through dealing with a person that his purity may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"It's through adversity that a person's endurance may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

Thana Sutta

And how should it be known? This is also explained by the Buddha, in terms of whether the person is observed to have in them greed, anger or delusion:

How is truth discovered? Here a bhikkhu lives near some village or town. Then a householder or his son goes to him in order to test him in three kinds of ideas, in ideas provocative of greed, of hate, and of delusion, wondering, "Are there in this venerable one any such ideas, whereby his mind being obsessed he might not knowing, say 'I know,' unseeing, say 'I see,' or to get others to do likewise, which would be long for their harm and suffering?" While thus testing him he comes to find that there are no such ideas in him, and he finds that, "The bodily and verbal behavior of that venerable one are not those of one affected by lust or hate or delusion. But the True Idea that this venerable one teaches is profound, hard to see and discover; yet it is the most peaceful and superior of all, out of reach of logical ratiocination, subtle, for the wise to experience; such a True Idea cannot be taught by one affected by lust or hate or delusion."

It is as soon as by testing him, he comes to see that he is purified from ideas provocative of lust, hate, and delusion, that he then plants his faith in him. When he visits him he respects him, when he respects him he gives ear, one who gives ear hears the True Idea, he remembers it, he investigates the meaning of the ideas remembered. When he does that he acquires a preference by pondering the ideas. That produces interest. One interested is actively committed. So committed he makes a judgment. According to his judgment he exerts himself. When he exerts himself he comes to realize with the body the ultimate truth, and he sees it by the penetrating of it with understanding. That is how there is discovery of truth. But there is as yet no final arrival at truth. How is truth finally arrived at? Final arrival at truth is the repetition, the keeping in being, the development, of those same ideas. That is how there is final arrival at truth."

Canki Sutta

That all beings said, it is not imperative that one find such a person who is totally free from defilement; it is important that one find a teacher who teaches according to this teaching and not otherwise, as mentioned above.

answered Jan 31, 2012 by yuttadhammo (8,823 points)  
selected Feb 1, 2012 by johnny
Superb! *Thank* you for such a detailed answer. It will make an immediate and, I think, important difference to my nascent practice.
+3 votes

Hi Johnny, I don't think there is a register, but here are some points to keep in mind regarding your search for a teacher:

(from the book Eight mindful steps to happiness)
"A good meditation center and a teacher who is sincerely willing
to assist you are important aids. You dont't want a teacher who requires submission or promises magical powers. You are looking for someone who knows more than you, whose life is exemplary, and with whom you can develop a long-term relationship. The Buddha's path may take several years - in some cases several lifetimes. Choose your guide wisely. The Buddha described the perfect teacher as "a good friend." Such a person speaks gently, kindly, and earnestly, respects you, and is caring and compassionate. A good friend never asks you to do anything wrong, but always encourages you to do the right thing and helps whenever you need assistance. A good friend is learned and rescourceful, ready to share knowledge with you without hesitation. Observe your potental teacher carefully. Deeds are more important than words. Daily contact with someone who has followed the Buddha's
path for at least ten years is a good way to see for yourself wheter the teachings work. Beware of teachers who charge high fees; they may be more interested in your money than your spiritual development."

and some video's:

answered Jan 27, 2012 by maarten (791 points)  
edited Jan 30, 2012 by maarten
+2 votes

"Now an important point (for me) is understanding where the appealing qualities are coming from. Is it simply because Yuttadhammo is a Canadian dude who can speak clearly to me? Possibly. Or ... more intriguing ... is it because he's coming from a pretty cool tradition, namely that of Mahasi Sayadaw. Is the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition particularly known for both its clarity, and its balance?"

hmmmm, very puzzling statement

Canadian dude who can speak clearly ??? There is a lot of people who can speak clearly, now how many have built what Bhante has? Have you taken a look at all dhama talks, dhama teachings, meditations session or/and Bhante's work on Sri Lanka??? Do you realize the time and dedication that this takes? Don't you think THIS is what it makes Bhante appealing to you??

hope you find your path

my best
Claudia

answered Jan 29, 2012 by claudia (1,572 points)  
edited Jan 30, 2012 by nagasena
I didn't mean to offend anyone by the phrase "Canadian dude who can speak clearly" (although I can maybe see how it might :-) ) Apologies if anyone was.

His time and dedication are clear, but lots of other people give the same and are not as useful (to me). What I was wondering was, is his appeal to me based simply on the fact that he speaks "my language"; specifically, he's "western" (that was what I really meant when I said "Canadian"), and he's clear (maybe "scientific" or "rational" would have been more accurate).

Or, as I said, maybe it's the Mahasi background. In other words, maybe it's *not* the form, it's the content.

Personally I think the form (western, scientific, rational, clear) is a big part. I've read a reasonable amount of Buddhist writing and Yuttadhammo's stands out (for me anyway).

Sound reasonable?

P.S. I also wrote, positively, of Yuttadhammo's stuff here: http://buddhalamadingdong.blogspot.com/2012/01/here-zazen-there-zazen-everywhere-zazen.html
Dear Johnny
I don't believe you offended anyone, it was just a matter of right speech samma vaca
 ,,, I get your point , it is great that you are looking for the right teacher, personally I think there are too many teachers teaching their own view and interpretations of buddhisms.

best luck
...